Interview with Steve Thacker, City Manager of Centerville, Utah

Editor’s note: This interview is the third in a series of conversations I had with managers at the ICMA Annual Conference in Milwaukee. Each of these managers represents a city or county that has offered or is currently offering Management Internships – one- to two-year postgraduate work and mentoring experiences that help new MPAs and MPPs get their feet wet in city management.

City Profile:

Centerville City has approximately 16,000 people and only 51 full time employees. It has a number of part time and limited employees, as we call them. [They are] seasonal employees in our Parks and Recreation department.

The total budget is about $16 million. The largest source of sales tax revenue is Wal-Mart. The Wal-Mart came to town in 2007. Just before the recession hit. We are very grateful to have had the Wal-Mart sales tax to prop us up.

Steve Thacker

Where did you start your career and how did you become a city manager?

Well, I was in the MPA program at BYU. Between my first and second year of graduate school I did an internship in the city of Mesa, Arizona. Mesa is where I grew up. I did settle on a specialty of city management; however, upon graduation I took a job as a performance auditor for the State of Arizona for the legislative branch. They were beginning a performance audit division in their Auditor General’s office. I took that opportunity and did that for five years. It was excellent experience in building the skills that became very useful and valuable later on as a city manager. After five years of doing that I had my first opportunity in city management – the town manager, the first town manager – in Snowflake, Arizona. After six years there, I became the city administrator in Cañon City, Colorado, which is at the mouth of the Royal Gorge. I stayed there eight and a half years and then took the job in Centerville. I began that job in February of 1998.

My career has spanned 33 years in public service; 28 years in city government at this point.

What is the greatest issue facing your city?

We have several land use planning initiatives. They are probably our hot-button issues.

They’re probably the greatest issues because any time you alter a general land use plan you have folks who may perceive that as detrimental. For example, we have adopted a plan for the redevelopment of the commercial part of Main Street. Some sections of Main Street are residential but we have a section that is commercial. It has not been a vibrant part of our community and the council wanted to create a plan that would bring redevelopment to that corridor, including some enhanced public transit. What that means, bottom line, is higher density and mixed use development that includes multi-family units. Then there would be commercial developments and also the possibility of more intense public transit, whether it’s bus rapid transit or a streetcar type thing as part of the South Davis Transit Initiative. So the combination of some higher residential density along the Main Street Corridor and the more intense public transit really alarmed a lot of people. We’ve had a lot of controversy on that. The City Council has gone back and revisited that plan and tweaked it in response to that: reducing the height of the buildings and the numbers of units in them and has taken out any reference to light rail specifically. Although it still refers to public transit generally until further studies are done to find out what else might be feasible.

And then we have a foothills management plan. The area on the east side on the mountainside is largely undeveloped. It’s mostly outside city limits. We want to control what happens to that land so we have developed a management plan expressing the potential uses of the mountainside, the constraints on development, and what the guiding values should be for the development of that land.

We’re also putting in a fiber optic network – Utopia – and they’re finally getting around to building the network in Centerville. That’s a high-profile subject right now. There are 11 cities that actually pledged funds for Utopia, that have an obligation to pay a yearly assessment. We are one of those cities.

How do you avoid pigeon-holing yourself in one particular department or specialty in city management?

It would be best to have some strengths in specialty areas...more in-depth experience. But you’d also need some exposure to many other areas. If you just know a little bit about a lot of things, that might work too if you can convince them that you have the skill set that will serve you well [in that position]. City managers can move up specializing in finance or personnel or planning or even public works for example. But if you have some exposure to a number of different areas that just broadens your appeal.

What’s the most awkward interview question you’ve ever asked or been asked?

That’s a tough one. I remember many years ago when I was trying to find my first city management job. They asked me how I felt about receiving grants. I suspected that the person asking the question was an ultra-conservative who didn’t like the idea of the strings that come attached with receiving grants. I think the question was “Would you seek and accept grants on behalf of the city?” and guessing the motives and philosophy of the person asking the question I took the safe route and said, “Well, you know it depends upon the position of the city council. Do they want to seek and use grants or not?” That’s a pretty safe answer.

Let’s talk a little about your management internship. Given that many cities are cutting these types of jobs, was it difficult to fund this position and “sell” it to your council?

It was not. No, it wasn’t difficult. It is a year-by-year budget decision. As I anticipate whether I have the collection of projects or accumulation of projects that would justify an intern I make that decision when I prepare the annual budget. Then I put those amounts in. If I think I may want one, I put that amount in. The council has been supportive; they’ve never turned me down when I requested it. But as you know we only have 51 full-time employees…it’s a pretty skimpy staff. That includes police and public works and parks maintenance people and all that so we don’t have a lot of bodies available to do special projects and assignments. The council understands that so they’ve always been supportive when I’ve asked for that funding.

How many times have you offered a position similar to this one?

Let me just talk about the last six years. I’ve had five interns in the last six years. I missed last year. Other than that I’ve had one every year. One year I did share the intern with the city of Bountiful. We split it half and half, twenty hours a week for each city. But it didn’t work so well. I don’t think there is enough accountability with the intern split between two employers. I feel like I didn’t have as much control over it. One year, I had a three way internship with three cities. That one worked ok because I actually had the intern for six weeks, somebody else had him for six weeks, and another city had him for six weeks. As opposed to trying to split their time every week, that type of sharing seemed to work better, although we only had him for six weeks.

As a member of the ICMA Task Force on Internship Guidelines, we’ve discussed changing the stigma of internships from “coffee and copies” to an “apprenticeship.” How would your management intern fit into that category?

I like that. That is really how I’ve been thinking about the intern. I’ve had interns not simply because I think they can give us some value for the relatively low wage we pay them but because I am committed to preparing the next generation of city managers. I have a lot of passion for this profession and I want to give that future generation of city managers a good start. The way I’ve looked at it is: “This is an apprenticeship. I want to give that intern as much insight into the challenges of being a city manager as possible and allow them to learn those things that they’re not going to learn in a classroom.” Because of that, one of the regular parts of my internships or apprenticeships is I have a weekly time set with my intern throughout the four-month period…an established block of time where the intern not only reports on the assignments but also can ask questions about anything that they’ve observed while they’re on the job. If they’ve observed something at a council meeting, interaction between the council members, the dynamics of the meeting, if they’ve observed something in the departments they’ve been working in…Anything at all. The issues facing the community, some of the public reaction at public hearings, they can ask about anything. There is nothing off-limits. And that’s how I think they’re going to gain the insights that they’re not going to gain in the classroom. It’s by seeing those things in real life and having the chance to talk about them.

I think that’s in line with the idea that this is an apprenticeship… a way for someone to really become a city manager someday.

What trends, positive or negative, do you see from recent MPA grads?

I don’t know if there are any negatives that I can think of offhand, and I see a lot of positives. They’re coming out of the BYU program with great quantitative skills, the use of technology and software, in order to document and analyze data is really amazing. My current intern, Ben, has an amazing ability to analyze data by the use of Excel and other software, some of it I wasn’t familiar with. That’s one of the advances, obviously, since my time in grad school. I’m a technology dinosaur! But I can appreciate the value of it.

They’re probably better writers. The BYU program has a heavy emphasis on writing and that seems to be the case with the interns I’ve had. For the most part, they’re pretty good writers. They have a desire for public service. That’s always been there for those that go into an MPA program.

Negative trends? I don’t know. I can’t think of any off the top of my head. Regarding the interns I have had from BYU, the values they come out with are really well placed for public service.

Do you have any last thoughts for someone seeking their first job?

I had an inquiry from a student the other day. He was faced with the choice of continuing to be an intern with [another city] or taking an internal audit position with the [State] Department of Corrections. He was wondering “Which one will serve me best?” I didn’t give him an answer specifically, but [I said] “Here are the things you need to think about:

1. What kind of assignments will you get in that position which will relate to your future goal of city management?

2. Are you going to be exposed to subject matter that will be relevant?

3. Are you going to be able to use and refine skills that will be relevant to city management?”

If you can get all of those, that’s best. I was a performance auditor for the first five years of my career and I was exposed to some of the subject matter that I was ultimately going to see in city management. The assignments that I had included the Department of Administration and the Department of Transportation. But the skills I was required to use were even more valuable for later use in city management.

Someone looking for their first job – if they want to be a city manager – then they need to be thinking about those things: The assignments, the subject matter, and the skill set and are those going to be relevant to city management. You could get that kind of experience in many different positions. If you don’t have many choices, that’s a different situation. You may even try the private sector. Any job that helps you build your interpersonal skills, your conceptual skills, and your analytical skills…you can transfer those to [any job] in the private or public sector.

Interview with Scott Darrington, CAO, Pleasant Grove, Utah

City Profile:

Pleasant Grove, Utah

Population: 33,000

City workforce: Approximately 100 FTEs (25 police, 15 fire)

Largest sales tax revenue: Macey’s grocery store

Previous CAO positions: Afton, Wyoming and South Ogden, Utah

Ask Pleasant Grove City Administrator Scott Darrington how he got started in city management and he’ll give you a short chuckle, a slight rise in his shoulders, and a grin. “Now there's a story,” he says after a moment.

Darrington graduated in 1997 from the Institute of Public Management at Brigham Young University (now named after three term Michigan Governor George W. Romney). The first few years after graduation were tough on Darrington.

“I think we had a 57 percent placement rate the year I graduated. I wish I had kept all the rejection letters that I got during that time,” he recalled. Darrington applied to many jobs around the country. Three times he was a finalist for three different positions in the city of Sandy, Utah. After long periods of no success, he used his own personal network and nearly moved to Kansas but decided against it. He also turned down a position in the city of Fresno, California.

“In some ways, I couldn’t just go wherever I wanted,” he said. “I knew that if I moved out to the middle of nowhere Kansas that I would have never met my wife. There are other things you have to take into account. Timing is a big deal. You also need to have a geographical preference.”

After three years of searching, Darrington obtained a position as the Administrative Assistant to the Mayor of Afton, Wyoming. “They were looking for the Mayor’s assistant. But above all, they were looking for someone to run their recreation programs. It just so happened that I had gotten my undergraduate degree in Recreation.”

The job was actually more involved than just running the recreation program. Darrington said he basically ran the entire town – budgeting, planning, recreation, and administration, among others – and supervised the other twelve city employees. After the city voted in a new mayor, Darrington asked if his title could be changed to Town Administrator.

“You’ve got to be willing to find the right title,” Darrington advises, “It also helps to have a direct link to the city council. That way, when you’re at your next job interview, you can say ‘I’ve interacted with the city council.’ That goes a long way for advancement.”

Darrington explained that the title depends on where you want to be with your career. Many people don’t want to be the city manager and are happy staying in senior management as a department director or as an assistant city manager. In his case, Darrington admits “Sometimes I wish I were the assistant.”

Looking back on his career thus far, he says, “It’s what I love. It’s what I like to do. And I think that’s how most [city] managers feel.”

Interview techniques and career advice

What are the top three skills you look for when hiring a new employee?

Darrington: First, I’d say I look for the right fit and the right attitude. I look for someone who can get along well with others in the organization. I can teach them how to write a budget or complete an analysis, but I can’t teach them to smile.

Second, I’d look for experience or capability to be taught or trained. No offense, but most recent graduates are inexperienced. But that doesn’t matter so much if someone is teachable.

I’d say third is I’m looking for someone who has a clear career path or career goal. I look for someone who is ambitious and passionate about local government. Personally, I prefer someone who will use this job to move upward, not someone who is looking for a decent salary and benefits. Some managers may disagree with me. I know Sandy [Utah] had hired several of my classmates. In a city the size of Sandy there were opportunities for upward mobility. In other words, these guys started as analysts and could move their way up. But after three or five years they got the itch to become [city] managers and they left. Some cities might feel they had lost an investment of time and talent. But I look for people who are interested in cultivating upward development.

What is the most awkward question you have asked or been asked during a job interview?

Darrington: I hate the “What’s your biggest weakness?” question. I just hate it. I’m prepared to answer that question, but personally I’ve given up asking it. You never get a real answer. Eighty percent of people who answer that question say they are perfectionists. The rest say “I work too hard” or “I care too much.” You’re not going to find someone who says, “Actually, sometimes I can be a little lazy” or “Sometimes I get distracted.” So I just don’t ask it anymore. I tend to stick to basic questions that can tell me if someone is going to fit in here.

As far as those crazy think-on-your-feet questions, I’ve never had any myself, but I know some people ask them. “Please describe yourself three different ways with one word each. You have ten seconds. Go,” for example. Those questions don’t really help me find the right person though, so I just stick to basic questions.

What trends, positive or negative, have you observed about recent MPA grads?

Darrington: For positive, I’d say they are smart. They pick things up quickly. I also get the feeling that they are looking for more than just a job. They are looking for a profession.

On the negative side, well, they are young and inexperienced. That’s not a true negative though. I wonder, though, how they are prepared to take over from the experienced baby boomer managers. We’ve all been talking about it for years now, but it hasn’t happened yet. With the recession, a lot of the managers who, in 2005 or 2006, had said, “I’m going to retire at 60” are waiting until they turn maybe 65. It will be interesting to see how this generation steps up.

If your goal is to become a city manager, how can you avoid getting pegged as a specialist in one department? For example, how do you avoid becoming “the Economic Development guru”?

Darrington: [Chuckles] I don’t have an easy answer for that one. I can understand that being an honest concern for your generation. There are fewer jobs out there right now that can help you gain general knowledge. But the short answer is every city is going to need something different. You have to learn to wear different hats. Try to get the generalist jobs – management analyst, assistant city manager, assistant to the city manager – as much as you can. But if you’re a management analyst, try to get different projects in different departments. Let the management know your career plans and ask them if there is anything else you can do that will help you meet those goals. As long as you get your work done, in my opinion, it shouldn’t matter.

That being said, economic development is great. If you’ve got experience and can show success in that field, you’ll always have a job. The same thing with finance. When I was in Afton, I was the finance director, but I honestly didn’t know all the ins and outs of everything. Here in Pleasant Grove I have a great finance director and we can at least speak the same language to one another. Experience in planning used to be the “in” field. But now it has kind of taken a back seat to the others. If you can’t get anything else, I’d take a job there, but the other two would be better.

Other thoughts

“You can’t get upset about time or money spent on policies that the council voted against. It’s sometimes a paradox. We, the administrative professionals, spend hours and hours of work putting together policies that the city council directs us to do. Then five residents come in to the council chambers and get upset about it and the council votes against it. If you get upset about that – if you get emotionally tied to your work, then you may be in the wrong profession. We can question them [the city council] all day long but it doesn’t change anything. You have to remember that as a city manager, you really don’t have the final say. The council was elected to make those decisions. Your job is to inform them the best that you can.”

Winning an interview

by Andrew Nelson



I had two interviews this week for two very good internships. There was obviously some overlap in the questions including the usual "tell us about yourself," and "tell me about a time when you faced significant conflict" questions.

I had one ringer though that really threw me for a loop.

Near the end of the interview, the city manager said, "So tell us what you know about our city."

I had, of course, done considerable background research and was able to briefly list their demographics, some recent politics, a reference to their budget, and how they recently met one of their strategic objectives. At this point, I was feeling pretty good about myself.

The city manager responded, "And how do you fit into the picture - our city - that you just described?"

I had thought of a similar question - "What can you bring to our city?" - but by then I was already taken off guard. What do I know about the city? Sure, I did some reading, but I never stopped to think about how my presence could possibly solve the specific issues I had described just seconds before. I had prepared to solve the problems directly linked to the job description. That isn't a bad start, but in my preparation perhaps I failed to miss a greater goal, and it also shed light on a personality fault of mine: I came from the perspective that people created internships to help students get their feet wet in the real world. I underestimated the city's desire to solve real problems. I knew that is what they wanted, but it hadn't settled in my brain yet.

Of course, I knew exactly what I should say, but I hesitated during my epiphany. I rattled off what was probably a lame answer and we moved on to the question/answer portion of the interview.

Lesson learned:

1) You must do background research on the city to which you are applying.
2) Your research is useless unless you can answer how you fit in to their current situation and can help meet the city's objectives, especially as they relate to the job description.

I'll cross my fingers. I'll have their decisions in the next few days.

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